Papermover v RR teacher

Moderators: Debbie Hepplewhite, maizie, Lesley Drake, Susan Godsland

Papermover
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:05 pm

Re: Papermover v RR teacher

Post by Papermover » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:19 pm

The RR teacher can claim all she likes, but from listening to her speak for half an hour its quite obvious she doesn't have a clue about Synthetic Phonics. She thought I was talking about
some form of INitial Teaching Alphabet when I was trying to explain that head and said both have the /e/ sound. She thought that books would always have to be "specially decodable" if you had learnt to read by using Synthetic Phonics, that you could never read normal books.

Still, it must help a bit Jenny? I have thought about doing reading with some of my daughters friends- if their parents are up for it. I don't feel confident or organised enough to teach them SP, but if just hearing them read books at the right decodable level would help even a little? Then their parents could watch what I do and take over?

User avatar
Debbie Hepplewhite
Administrator
Posts: 3660
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:13 pm
Location: Berkshire
Contact:

Re: Papermover v RR teacher

Post by Debbie Hepplewhite » Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:36 pm

Even if children are not reading strictly decodable books which match the code they've been taught, parents can still teach letter/s-sound correspondences 'incidentally' - or mention the phonics within words in books parents are 'sharing' with their children.

This phrase is useful for incidental teaching - and there are other useful resources from which you could choose any to show to fellow-parents to give them knowledge and confidence to take some teaching into their own hands:

http://www.phonicsinternational.com/FR_PI_straight.pdf

For anyone who is interested, the 'Free Resources' page at www.phonicsinternational.com may be helpful.

There are also a wide selection of free Alphabetic Code Charts at www.alphabeticcodecharts.com .

;-)

chew8
Posts: 4184
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 6:26 pm

Re: Papermover v RR teacher

Post by chew8 » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:40 am

Yes, papermover, I think that what I do with the children does help a bit. Moreover, I don’t think this is just a matter of my subjective impressions – it also shows in various test results.

Re. what Debbie says about incidental teaching: I think this can be fine if one works with children every day, as parents and teachers can do – I certainly did it with my own children. In my present voluntary work, however, I see children only for about 8 minutes once a week at most, and I find that the weaker readers don’t have a firm enough grasp of regularities for incidental teaching to work well - e.g. they are not secure enough on ‘ai’ as in ‘rain’ and ‘tail’ to understand that ‘ai’ as in ‘said’ is unusual.

Jenny C.

User avatar
maizie
Administrator
Posts: 3121
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:38 pm
Location: N.E England

Re: Papermover v RR teacher

Post by maizie » Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:52 am

Papermover wrote:She thought that books would always have to be "specially decodable" if you had learnt to read by using Synthetic Phonics, that you could never read normal books.
That's my 'laugh for the day' sorted, then :mrgreen:

Trying to find some 'evidence' that RR does include systematic phonics instruction I came across this:

Code: Select all

Reading Recovery

Jean Prance takes issue with Debbie Hepplewhite’s characterisation of Reading Recovery
http://specialchildren-magazine.com/bac ... g-recovery

A curious piece in which Ms Prance (is this Jean Gros with a new name) implies that RR teachers are experts in phonics instruction.

Perhaps Papermover should contact the RR UK organisation (at the Institute of Education) expressing her concerns that RR teacher at her child's school appears to need some training in phonics instruction...

chew8
Posts: 4184
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 6:26 pm

Re: Papermover v RR teacher

Post by chew8 » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:20 pm

Jean Prance is, as she says in this article, the person who first introduced RR in England. She had taught in my own local authority (Surrey), which sent her to New Zealand to train under Marie Clay. She then set up a Reading Recovery training centre (one-way screen and all) about 6 miles from where I was living and teaching. Because I had been belly-aching about poor literacy standards, I was sent to watch her carrying out RR training in December 1990. This was supposed to persuade me that Surrey was taking the lead in solving the UK's literacy problems. It did not persuade me, and I wrote various letters saying so to local authority people and to Kenneth Clarke, who was Sec. of State for Education at the time.

Jenny C.

User avatar
maizie
Administrator
Posts: 3121
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:38 pm
Location: N.E England

Re: Papermover v RR teacher

Post by maizie » Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:52 pm

So she's a different person from Jean Gros, then, Jenny?

chew8
Posts: 4184
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 6:26 pm

Re: Papermover v RR teacher

Post by chew8 » Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:52 pm

Yes, definitely different.

Jenny C.

Papermover
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:05 pm

Re: Papermover v RR teacher

Post by Papermover » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:42 pm

It is tempting to contact the RR at IOE MazieD. I looked up their address and thought about dropping by personally. However that would make it all a bit personal, woulld anger and upset a lot of people and probably not help amyone. I think I need to follow all the correct school complaints procedures before I do anything else.

It's good to know that incidental teaching does help children. I keep thinking that I can't do anything because I can't do everything. Although I know that's not true really and I've helped my daughter, with lots of help from you all.

LGP
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:12 pm

Re: Papermover v RR teacher

Post by LGP » Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:34 pm

Hi Papermover - just seen this thread, typed you a late reply and promptly lost it all as it timed out when I put the boys to bed - sigh.

I'm really sorry to hear that you're continuing to have a cruddy time with your daughters school. We also had one of 'those' meetings with an extremely defensive head and others, drafted in to outnumber us I suspect. It was polite but ineffective, as have been my follow up emails regarding the effectiveness of (private) SP for my son when all their interventions failed. I did lodge an official complaint with Ofsted but they returned it, stating that as my son was on the SEN register all educational matters should be dealt with by the school, governing body and local authority. We haven't taken this further to date; I know from my own experience and from other parents that the senior team can be quite petty and spiteful so I'm reluctant for this to affect my younger child.

It is HUGELY frustrating to feel incompetent in the face of bad practice. I have tried to overcome this by talking to other parents, spreading the good word about good phonics, and voluntarily tutoring a child from year 6 who has fallen foul of their ineffective teaching in a very similar way to my son, as well as coaching my younger son out of any bad habits that crop up. I have slowly become known as a local phonics 'queen' so some people do speak to me when they have a concern - I'm going to start coaching another boy soon.

However, 'my' school is nowhere near as bad as the one you describe - they do attempt to do it, even if the head is a bit of a whole word apologist. So we have been content-ish to run with it for now, but I do keep an eye out for opportunities to make changes where I can - I start reading with children at the school soon - so who knows who I will get to speak to there about it when the SLT aren't watching ;-)

It IS hard to stay positive Papermover, but worth it in the long run. I think our experiences are motivating and I'd like to think if we keep talking and posting then something good will rub off somewhere... Good luck.

Papermover
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:05 pm

Re: Papermover v RR teacher

Post by Papermover » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:13 pm

Hello LGP!

I can't believe Ofsted, you have no way to hold the schools to account for your child's education because he's on the SEN register, that is dreadful.

How is the tutoring going? How often do you see the child? I would love to help some of the children in my daughters class, and maybe I will, but I'm too nervous to at the moment.

I suppose I am the Phonics Queen in my area too, and some parents have changed what they are doing with heir children at home. It's difficult through, because people don't necessity want to associate with someone they may see as rocking the boat.

I'd love to be a reading volunteer, but the schools round here don't seem to have them. The children do guided reading, but no one to one.

Good luck to you too!

LGP
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:12 pm

Re: Papermover v RR teacher

Post by LGP » Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:04 pm

Aghhh...fated not to reply to you easily Papermover - this time it was a powercut!

Where was I?.. I think we can hold them to account via the Local Authority but its a battle we decided not to have, for the time being at least. I've seen this senior team be quite petty and vindictive and unfortunately I do believe that gets down to a child's level in this particular school - shocking, but I think I'm right in believing that.

The tutoring is going well. I see one boy aged 10 once a week for an hour - it's been 12 weeks and he's doing well, likes coming and reads the books I give him in-between, which he's now starting to find a bit easy so I'll have to start using different materials soon. He, his parents and his school noticed a difference within about 6 weeks. After assessment I started with sound swaps and extended code vowel sounds. I teach each sound and the alternative 'more spellings' using about 3 different lessons/worksheets and a reading book to cement it in. I'm not sure yet if that's a slow pace but it means I review a little at the beginning of each lesson to help his memory, which is particularly useful if he's missed a week.

I was nervous at first and I definitely don't get it spot on every time but I'm learning each week; it helps that he's older because he has good all round knowledge/comprehension of English anyway. I do it for free so it's great for his parents (I know them locally) and the 3 of them are also helping me as I find my way around the programme. I've assessed other children for other concerned parents but they live too far away for me to coach them, although I might look into the practicality of doing it via Skype, as I'm sure I saw it mentioned somewhere..

Of course with my youngest it's a different ball game! We did lots of sound swaps and initial code polysyllabic fine towards the end of reception and in the summer; moving onto EC I was quite nervous but we've slowly found our way and now I think he finds the 'mummy' phonics a bit less threatening and confusing than the school variety - so many b***** silent e's!! However, I feel a bit wary of tutoring any children that young, which is unlikely anyway as problems won't always emerge so soon.

I'd love to share ideas and experiences with you so I can text you my email if you like? It can be a bit of a lonely place at times being a solo boat-rocker in a school community; we could help other polish the angel wings when they start to tarnish!

Papermover
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:05 pm

Re: Papermover v RR teacher

Post by Papermover » Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:12 am

A power cut, so 70s! Retro.

I blasted through the Code with my daughter, just so she didn't have to use the mixed methods strategies. I was desperate that she kept out of the 20% that the RR teacher would get her hands on. We still need to practice everything, particularly coping with polysyllabic words, and spelling but I'm less concerned about her now. I wish she could have a Code chart at school to help her with her written work, but I kept sending one in and it got sent back.

I am getting a bit cross with her use of letter names for everything, it's really confusing her. U I think the school have to teach letter names as part of the Nat C though, so not totally their fault. She knows the letter names anyway, so no need to hammer them home so forcibly. If the school were going to leave out one statutory part of the NC I'd rather it was this than SP.

I've got your contact details so yes let's share, It would be great to feel less isolated.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 46 guests