Papermover again

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Papermover
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Re: Papermover again

Post by Papermover » Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:12 pm

maizie wrote:
Papermover wrote:Sigh, I know. My book shelves hold many classic childrens' books that have been withdrawn from library stock to make way for books about Shopping Princess Kittens.
Now, that's another thing that makes me furious! When did all this gender stereotyping take such a strong hold? 30 years ago we were all trying to bring our children up to ignore the stereotypes! Are they rebelling against us now :???:
I don't know why it is happening :smile: I'm fighting my own little battle on that one too, not getting very far but have read some good childrens books to my daughter to at least try to; Emily Brown, Ottoline, Paper Bag Princess, Pippi Longstocking...

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maizie
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Re: Papermover again

Post by maizie » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:35 pm

I adored Thomas the Tank Engine and his friends (the originals, of course) at an early age! Preferred Eagle (boy's mag.)to Girl (girl's mag.) too.

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Re: Papermover again

Post by volunteer » Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:47 am

Papermover wrote:I hope you don't mind, I just wanted to have a forum to say what I am thinking and feeling at the moment about how my daughter is being taught to read at school. She is in reception and the school have refused to provide her with decodable books as they don't agree with phonics. It's not that they don't teach phonics, they do, slowly, all the children are at the beginning of stage 3 letters and Sounds. It's just the only reading they do is using other strategies.

That was the background. I have been doing my phonic bit at home.

This weekend my daughter spent hours reading to me, because she wanted to. She sounded out lots ( about 50) of magnetic words and we put them into sentences. We read books she could decode and we read the school "old fashioned" books while I covered up the picture cues and read the sounds for her that we haven't learnt.

Today she has had a guided reading session at school. The teacher said she had trouble reading in this session, particularly with the HFW words, the words she is being taught to learn by route. Sure enough, tonight her eyes are all over the place, she was guessing words ( because one word was shoe, she guessed another word as socks, it was spots) . She was reading right to left, so "on"instead of "no". It was a book about sausages, although how they expected her to read a cvcvvvc word with the sound /o/ for au, which she doesnt know, I am not sure.

I am sick with worry, and to be frank, anger. I see no way forward with the head or governors, if I did put in a complaint it would just be a procedure, I am sure nothing would happen. If I thought what I was doing at home was enough, I would be happy, but it isn't enough. Every time she reads at school she comes back to me wildly guessing, forgetting to sound out and looking at words on a page and saying " I can't do it".

I know Debbie said I should write to Ofsted, Gove, the governors etc, and I may have to. I feel sick at the thought of it. This is my daughters school for the next seven years, I don't want to alienate the staff so early on. They had an Ofsted At the end of last summer term ( from Outstanding to Good), so they won't be Ofsed again any time soon.

My partner wants to know what is so bad about the way the school is doing things, if Ofsted think they are all right, they must be. The report said the phonics results were poor, so teachers had been trained to use phonics, it doesn't seem that the teachers put what they have learnt into practice.

To top it all the other parents love the school and trust the head completely, this is North London, the home of the media journalism middle classes. How can I be right and they be wrong?

Can I teach my daughter to read phonetically if every week we go back a few paces after her school lesson? Is it worth rewriting to Gove and Ofsted, or do you think they are both busy with other things ;)
Do you know which day of the week guided reading is? She could be away that day each week until she is less likely to be influenced by the school methods. She is not compulsory school age yet.

I am afraid Papermover that this kind of thing may repeat itself throughout school life. I experience equivalent things with the maths teaching too. For my children school has not been about learning.

On a positive note, it does sound as though your daughter is pretty far on in the learning to read process for a child her age. If you manage to carry on with what you are doing at home you will probably find that by early year 2 she is reading pretty much what she wants to read.

You could train her to ask a few searching questions during guided reading e.g. "Miss, how many words are there in the dictionary beginning with that letter? How can I guess that many?" You can cancel out the school effect; the biggest reason it is hard work though in my family is because school has "high status". Whatever the teacher says is far more believable than what Mummy tells you. Have to say though, that after a long war of attrition with my children I have convinced them that Mummy can be right too.

Is your partner any good at supporting decoding and blending while your DD reads? If not, it's probably best to stick to hearing the reading just yourself.

I would keep on making detailed notes on the reading record e.g." Ethel decoded hippopotamus by herself tonight while I covered over the picture. Wow! " Make sure you sign the record and put that you are the parent on any entries that you make so that OFSTED can see (if your child's record is picked up at some point -- they do come in to good schools for a quick check to see that they don't need to reinspect sooner) that it's you that's making these entries and not a teacher (theirs will be the ones about using picture clues and 2,000 guesses)

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Re: Papermover again

Post by Heather F » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:49 am

You are not alone! I am a hardened veteran on my third child going through the system. It makes no difference to complain and I would only do so if I thought there would be even a small impact from doing so.
The main thing I would say is not to be despondent. Your child would become a great reader. With my daughter I coped with teachers suggesting her reading progress was slow because she was still sounding words out. They just couldn't see that she was gaining confidence that would mean she could read any word while others were memorising wholes/guessing and had the whole job of starting to infer phonic patterns ahead of them. It also meant that in yr 1 the teacher kept her working slowly through book levels because she was used to children needing lots of practice at this stage when my daughter was actually ready to just take off. I would simply write 'finished with' in the reading record and use books I had. By that stage the ORT Biff, Chip and Kipper books were like poison. A week of those and we were back with guessing because they are written to encourage guessing. That was a shame as all three of mine loved the Magic Key adventures in them. Needless to say at the end of yr 2 my daughter was a very good reader indeed!
In response to the assumption that teachers and Ofsted must know what they are doing I would explain that teachers don't agree amongst themselves. My eldest was taught well with phonics at school and then a new head came along for year one and openly said to parents that the way those kids had been taught to read was not 'real reading'. It was that contradiction that first got me interested! You can also look at the report on the phonics screening check which clearly shows that a majority don't even understand he principles of the government endorsed phonics approach!
Finally handwriting... My daughter has a Sept birthday and on every single birthday card the letters were incorrectly formed in the Sept of yr 1. Strangely enough my son's class seem fine but then their teacher believed in teaching letter formation formally! It is the sort of thing parents will do at home though as some kids will love to write.
Anyway try and chill, however frustrating the process your input means it will all work out fine!

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Re: Papermover again

Post by Heather F » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:55 am

Here is the link to the report. Go to p23 https://www.nfer.ac.uk/nfer/publication ... YOPC01.pdf

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Re: Papermover again

Post by Lesley Drake » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:56 am

Pulling a child out of school once a week to avoid guided reading is very poor advice.

Yes, it's frustrating and wrong that the teacher is using searchlight strategies with the children, but this is one 30 minute slot a week. Your child probably gets to read one or two sentences as part of a group of 6.

What you are doing at home will more than compensate for that.

Priming her to ask awkward questions would mean directly involving her in the battle between you and the teacher at the age of 5.

Again, very poor advice.

You can do all you can by writing to adults, speaking to adults and teaching her at home, but don't involve the child in the battle.

If you are not going to move her to another school and not going to home educate, then as you say, it's her school for the next 7 years. She doesn't need to feel torn between pleasing one lot of adults and another.

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Re: Papermover again

Post by volunteer » Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:52 pm

He he! It was a bit tongue in cheek Lesley, but this child is young reception age, not yet compulsory school age. Flexi-schooling can work successfully at a wide range of ages, and plenty of younger children in the past had no harm done to them by not starting reception until the spring or the summer term. It can still be done with parental choice.

Yes, if the rest of the day and week is great one short lesson a week shouldn't make a huge difference to her reading - but with some children it can. One minute being told something at school by a teacher can take a thousand hours of undoing at home. It depends very much on the child's personality as much as anything.

They will be torn between school and home if they are one of these children if they stay in the guided reading lesson!

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Re: Papermover again

Post by Papermover » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:25 pm

"Do you know which day of the week guided reading is? She could be away that day each week until she is less likely to be influenced by the school methods. She is not compulsory school age yet"

No, It was always on one particular day, but the day now seems to have changed. I did think about doing this, but I don't think it's a good idea for various reasons. She is 5 anyway, so statutory school age now.

"I am afraid Papermover that this kind of thing may repeat itself throughout school life. I experience equivalent things with the maths teaching too. For my children school has not been about learning. "

My maths is worse than my English. It would seem I am totally a product of some sort of wooly education. I do wonder how I got a degree, but I have worked in H.Ed for years and I seem to have come out the other side better than some! Her Dad can teach her Maths, John very helpfully suggested a programme.

"On a positive note, it does sound as though your daughter is pretty far on in the learning to read process for a child her age. If you manage to carry on with what you are doing at home you will probably find that by early year 2 she is reading pretty much what she wants to read. "

I don't think she is that far along, and I am pretty sure I'm messing up some things. I have a copy of the PI Handbook in my handbag so I can read it on the way to work. I am really enjoying getting to grips with phonics myself. I have discovered that "sausages" and "because" have the same sound for au, and added it to my chart. I'm very exited about the S-w course as I want to have the confidence to reach her properly.

"You could train her to ask a few searching questions during guided reading e.g. "Miss, how many words are there in the dictionary beginning with that letter? How can I guess that many?" You can cancel out the school effect; the biggest reason it is hard work though in my family is because school has "high status". Whatever the teacher says is far more believable than what Mummy tells you. Have to say though, that after a long war of attrition with my children I have convinced them that Mummy can be right too. "

Ha! She might get that to that stage on her own, I am really trying not to be too rude about the school. The only thing the school and I have agreed on is that this must not be a battle with her in the middle. Obviously her teacher knows best. Although that's better than pre- school when my daughter knew best. I well remember the "that's black, no that's white" argument...

"Is your partner any good at supporting decoding and blending while your DD reads? If not, it's probably best to stick to hearing the reading just yourself. "
I think we are going to stick with it just being me for now.

"I would keep on making detailed notes on the reading record e.g." Ethel decoded hippopotamus by herself tonight while I covered over the picture. Wow! " Make sure you sign the record and put that you are the parent on any entries that you make so that OFSTED can see (if your child's record is picked up at some point -- they do come in to good schools for a quick check to see that they don't need to reinspect sooner) that it's you that's making these entries and not a teacher (theirs will be the ones about using picture clues and 2,000 guesses)"

Brilliant idea, I do all that but I don't write " mum" next to it, I will from now on.

Papermover
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Re: Papermover again

Post by Papermover » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:33 pm

Thanks heather f I can already see that is likely to be our situation. It is good to hear we aren't alone, sad, but good :smile:

Now I do realise how the ORT type books are designed to work I will try and avoid them. I know nothing about the Magic Key and am quite happy to continue in my blissfully ignorant state.

I sat on the bus today with a list of HF words and ticked all the ones that my daughter should be able to read now. I then went on and ticked all the ones I could teach her using what I now know, which isn't much, but still, I got to around 150 words. It's great, I am so exited, and nerdy.

Papermover
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Re: Papermover again

Post by Papermover » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:41 pm

Lesley Drake wrote:Pulling a child out of school once a week to avoid guided reading is very poor advice.

Yes, it's frustrating and wrong that the teacher is using searchlight strategies with the children, but this is one 30 minute slot a week. Your child probably gets to read one or two sentences as part of a group of 6.

What you are doing at home will more than compensate for that.

Priming her to ask awkward questions would mean directly involving her in the battle between you and the teacher at the age of 5.

Again, very poor advice.

You can do all you can by writing to adults, speaking to adults and teaching her at home, but don't involve the child in the battle.

If you are not going to move her to another school and not going to home educate, then as you say, it's her school for the next 7 years. She doesn't need to feel torn between pleasing one lot of adults and another.
I really have to keep this in mind, thank you. I don't think moving to a different school would help, even if there was a place available. I know children at all the surrounding schools, and it seems that are all taught a using Searchlight strategies. The other schools have different excuses, and are maybe slightly less arrogant about it, but are still doing it.

She loves her teacher too, and I think she likes doing guided reading as its one of the only time she gets that much attention from her :roll:

I do need to chill out, but i am also pleased we have both come a long way since my Mumsnet post, back in November I think it was.

Papermover
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Re: Papermover again

Post by Papermover » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:49 pm

And thanks for the link Heather, that does make sense in the context of what I have seen at my daughter's school, her friends schools, and even teacher friends of mine.

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Re: Papermover again

Post by volunteer » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:23 pm

Children are not compulsory school age until the term after their fifth birthday. It would be easy to arrange flexi schooling of one day per week at home until then as the school budget is not affected and you can't be fined etc.

In our reception papermover children were still learning single letter - sound correspondences at this point in time, blending simple Cvc words. And that was the top group!

Papermover
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Re: Papermover again

Post by Papermover » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:22 pm

volunteer wrote:Children are not compulsory school age until the term after their fifth birthday. It would be easy to arrange flexi schooling of one day per week at home until then as the school budget is not affected and you can't be fined etc.

In our reception papermover children were still learning single letter - sound correspondences at this point in time, blending simple Cvc words. And that was the top group!
We seem to be in a better situation than you then. The children seem to be getting plenty or revision of the sounds they have learnt and are now on phase 3 and moving onto 4. They don't seem to do any formal handwriting, no sitting down with lined paper. I think all the phonics is whole class. All that I can live with, it's the guided reading that gets us, but I am feeling a lot more chilled ATM. Nothing to do with the G&T...

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Re: Papermover again

Post by Papermover » Thu May 22, 2014 6:08 pm

You are all great!

I've attended the wonderful Sounds-Write course and been using my PI Alphabetic Code charts. My daughter can now read! She loves to read. There is a long way to go, but she can now pick up any item of print and have a go at decoding it. We have been speading through the sounds as I wanted her to use a phonics strategy to read the books the school get her to read, rather than guessing.

Her favoured strategy is phonics, although she does revert to guessing wildly (as taught by school) if she is a bit tired. She sound swaps really well, although her teacher doesn't understand what she is doing and tells her to look at the pictures more. We were reading a book yesterday from the Usborne Phonics Reading scheme. It had the word stretch written as S-T-R-E-T-C-H. She read this fine, but I commented in passing that it should have really been written S-T-R-E-T-CH, she said "no" S-T-R-E-TCH. She then showed my this way of writing /ch/ on the Alphabetic Code chart.

I am of course very proud, but I don't think for a minute it's any sort of high intelligence thing, i think it is just she has been taught how to do something, and now she can do it. It's sad that all the other children in her school haven't had the opportunity.

Anyway, thank you .

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Debbie Hepplewhite
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Re: Papermover again

Post by Debbie Hepplewhite » Fri May 23, 2014 3:37 pm

Fantastic news about your daughter - very heartwarming for all of us!

This made me laugh because when I was only just beginning to understand about phonics - as an already experienced teacher - I, too, thought the breakdown was to separate out the 't' and the 'ch' at first.
It had the word stretch written as S-T-R-E-T-C-H. She read this fine, but I commented in passing that it should have really been written S-T-R-E-T-CH, she said "no" S-T-R-E-TCH.
I remember making some neat, laminated word cards and only coloured the 'ch' red at the end of words at first.

Needless to say, when I realised my mistake some time later, I was very embarrassed and of course my resources were then useless.

This is just one of the reasons that I promote the use of Alphabetic Code Charts not only for reference charts at home and in the classroom, but also for training and informing student-teachers and teachers as well.

The notion of Alphabetic Code Charts ensures that the alphabetic code is 'tangible' - in other words, a 'concrete' piece of information and not just a long stream of letter/s-sound correspondences that get introduced frequently and which may seem never-ending for teachers, learners and the learners' parents!

Anyone can find a chart here suitable for their purposes:

http://alphabeticcodecharts.com/free_charts.html

By making the alphabetic code explicit from the start, this also allows for incidental teaching and it allows for children to 'self-teach' - making sense of wider reading and writing.

Use of Alphabetic Code Charts also supports 'incidental' phonics teaching which anyone can call upon - be it in school or in the home.

Here is an example of language that can be used to support the spelling process:
http://www.phonicsinternational.com/Let ... l_that.pdf

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